From nacho4d at mac.com Mon Feb 15 06:46:18 2010 From: nacho4d at mac.com (Guillermo Enriquez) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:46:18 +0900 Subject: Snow leopard Support? Message-ID: <9B5A5CE8-101A-41E9-B518-977934227EB4@mac.com> Hi I downloaded IOXperts Webcam Driver 1.2 for Mac OS X -- BETA and Installed in my MacOS 10.6.2 (Snow Leopard) And Apple applications like iChat works very well but, when I try to run some code I got only black and white frames, so no color. I wonder if this is a restriction of the trial version?( I think this because when i try ichat there is no trial alert or serial code input alert, but there is one when I run programs from code. ) Or maybe is just a bug? Or maybe I got the incorrect drivers? Does anybody is actually getting the drivers to work well in Snow Leopard? I have tried with QTRecorder sample program and OpenCV and I have the results are the same. ( http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/samplecode/QTRecorder/QTRecorder.zip ) I hope this is a restriction. Thanks Ignacio From Remy_Zimmermann at logitech.com Mon Feb 15 07:04:06 2010 From: Remy_Zimmermann at logitech.com (Remy_Zimmermann at logitech.com) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 04:04:06 -0800 Subject: AUTO: Remy Zimmermann/CA/US/LOGITECH is out of the office. (returning 02/25/2010) Message-ID: I am out of the office until 02/25/2010. Note: This is an automated response to your message "Snow leopard Support?" sent on 2/15/2010 3:46:18 AM. This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ioxperts.com/pipermail/video-beta-discuss/attachments/20100215/6a5200b7/attachment.html From steve.sisak at ioxperts.com Mon Feb 15 08:57:12 2010 From: steve.sisak at ioxperts.com (Steve Sisak) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:57:12 -0500 Subject: Snow leopard Support? In-Reply-To: <9B5A5CE8-101A-41E9-B518-977934227EB4@mac.com> References: <9B5A5CE8-101A-41E9-B518-977934227EB4@mac.com> Message-ID: Hi Ignacio, Thanks for writing -- I'll try to give you a detailed answer here, although it's probably not the one you want to hear :-(, I'm hoping it's useful and will help others. At 8:46 PM +0900 2/15/10, Guillermo Enriquez wrote: >I downloaded IOXperts Webcam Driver 1.2 for Mac OS X -- BETA >and Installed in my MacOS 10.6.2 (Snow Leopard) >And Apple applications like iChat works very well but, when I try to >run some code I got only black and white frames, so no color. From your description, I'm guessing that your camera is an IIDC FireWire camera that does Bayer color -- if this is the case, the black and white image probably has a slight "screen door" effect. This is from the Bayer Image, which looks like this: RGRGRGRG GBGBGBGB RGRGRGRG GBGBGBGB Being displayed as black and white. As far as we know, 1.2 works fine on Snow Leopard -- the problem is that as of Snow Leopard if you use the "new" QuickTime APIs and one of Apple's drivers thinks it supports your camera, the Apple driver will be used in preference to any 3rd party drivers. Also, the "iApps" (iChat, iPhoto, etc.) are hard-coded to not show video from 3rd party drivers (unless you use a 3rd party patch like iUSBCam to get around that restriction). I suspect the problem here is that Apple's driver doesn't support Bayer color and (incorrectly) displays it as grayscale, but since Apple's driver thinks it supports the camera, if you use the "new" QTKit APIs to capture video, you will always get the Apple driver (and a black and white image). If you're writing your own code and use the (old) Sequence Grabber (or VDIG) API, you will see both our drivers and Apple's as separate inputs and can choose freely between them. Unfortunately, 3rd party driver developers cannot ship drivers based on the new API (this has been the case for several years) and the new API and many applications on them, do not provide a means for switching between drivers for the same device. Hopefully you can see the difficult position we're in. At the moment, the only way to reliably support 3rd party drivers is to use the old API -- hopefully this will change, but the issue is entirely in Apple's hands. This should also explain why we haven't been doing many driver updates. I'm open to suggestions on how we can best serve our customers here. At the moment, the options I can see are: 1) Wait for Apple to allow 3rd parties to ship QTKit drivers 2) Encourage people to use the old API 3) Develop a new video input API that isn't dependent on QuickTime (and convince Application developers to use it) Other suggestions would be welcome here. Quick answers to the rest of your questions: >I wonder if this is a restriction of the trial version?( I think >this because when i try ichat there is no trial alert or serial code >input alert, but there is one when I run programs from code. ) If you don't get a trial alert, then that's a good indication you're getting the Apple driver instead of ours. >Or maybe is just a bug? >Or maybe I got the incorrect drivers? See above. :-( >Does anybody is actually getting the drivers to work well in Snow Leopard? If you have an application the uses the (old) Sequence Grabber API, is should work. For a test, you can grab a copy of Hack TV (a test application) from our website here: You should see both drivers in the video input dialog. >I have tried with QTRecorder sample program and OpenCV and I have >the results are the same. >( >http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/samplecode/QTRecorder/QTRecorder.zip >) > >I hope this is a restriction. It's not -- with the exception of the time limit, the trial version _is_ the full version (as in the same code). HTH, -Steve -- _________________________________________________________________________ Steve Sisak, CTO steve.sisak at ioxperts.com IOXperts, Inc. +1 617 876-2572 From nacho4d at mac.com Mon Feb 15 11:38:18 2010 From: nacho4d at mac.com (Guillermo Enriquez) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 01:38:18 +0900 Subject: Snow leopard Support? In-Reply-To: References: <9B5A5CE8-101A-41E9-B518-977934227EB4@mac.com> Message-ID: <8AF714DC-01EA-4AD1-B7F5-51B11D80B327@mac.com> Thanks for your quick reply I see the problem now. As you said, I am using a IIDC FireWire camera and uses Bayer color. I also tried HackTV application and as you said I can see 3 cameras Built-in iSight, Point Grey (probably using ioxperts drivers?) and camera (Which is also Point Grey camera but color rendering is correct) Also tried QTRecorder (see below link) and also can see 3 cameras but Point Grey shows only grey colors and the third one "camera" does not render well colors (as you said). In fact it shows pure black frames. > If you're writing your own code and use the (old) Sequence Grabber (or VDIG) API, you will see both our drivers and Apple's as separate inputs and can choose freely between them. > Unfortunately, 3rd party driver developers cannot ship drivers based on the new API (this has been the case for several years) and the new API and many applications on them, do not provide a means for switching between drivers for the same device. > I might be misunderstanding it but, current QT is X so it means 3rd party can develop with QT 7? Or this affect all QT? > At the moment, the only way to reliably support 3rd party drivers is to use the old API -- hopefully this will change, but the issue is entirely in Apple's hands. This should also explain why we haven't been doing many driver updates. > I see Also I have I new idea but, I don't know it will work, (It might take some time to test it) and also this might not the right place to ask about libdc1394. If I try libdc1394 do I have chances to get correct color frames from my camera? I did a search and found that there are some private frameworks that if used, one could get correct behavior (maybe)?(Jun 2007) http://macdaddyworld.com/2007/07/13/quicktime-72-brings-leopard-functionality/ Perhaps this is the way HackTV is done? I wonder if there is a place I can get HackTV code? It would be a good idea to write some requests or bug report to Apple. but what exactly should i write? That QuickTimeX does not render well color that come from a camera with RGB Bayer color frames? Thanks. Ignacio From imjeffp at mac.com Mon Feb 15 11:43:28 2010 From: imjeffp at mac.com (Jeff Phillips) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:43:28 -0600 Subject: Snow leopard Support? Message-ID: This may be of interest to you: http://www.outcastsoft.com/ASCASTROIIDC.html ======================== http://imjeffp.blogspot.com On Feb 15, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Guillermo Enriquez wrote: > As you said, I am using a IIDC FireWire camera and uses Bayer color. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ioxperts.com/pipermail/video-beta-discuss/attachments/20100215/32221e6c/attachment.html From steve.sisak at ioxperts.com Mon Feb 15 12:02:06 2010 From: steve.sisak at ioxperts.com (Steve Sisak) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:02:06 -0500 Subject: Snow leopard Support? In-Reply-To: <8AF714DC-01EA-4AD1-B7F5-51B11D80B327@mac.com> References: <9B5A5CE8-101A-41E9-B518-977934227EB4@mac.com> <8AF714DC-01EA-4AD1-B7F5-51B11D80B327@mac.com> Message-ID: At 1:38 AM +0900 2/16/10, Guillermo Enriquez wrote: >Thanks for your quick reply No problem. >I see the problem now. >As you said, I am using a IIDC FireWire camera and uses Bayer color. >I also tried HackTV application and as you said I can see 3 cameras >Built-in iSight, >Point Grey (probably using ioxperts drivers?) and >camera (Which is also Point Grey camera but color rendering is correct) Your assumptions are correct: "Point Grey" is the IOXperts driver and "camera" is the Apple driver -- if you switch between them, the image should be B&W for the Apple driver and color for the IOX driver. >Also tried QTRecorder (see below link) and also can see 3 cameras but >Point Grey shows only grey colors and >the third one "camera" does not render well colors (as you said). In >fact it shows pure black frames. QTRecorder uses the new QTKit API and can only see the Apple driver. > > If you're writing your own code and use the (old) Sequence >Grabber (or VDIG) API, you will see both our drivers and Apple's as >separate inputs and can choose freely between them. >> Unfortunately, 3rd party driver developers cannot ship drivers >>based on the new API (this has been the case for several years) and >>the new API and many applications on them, do not provide a means >>for switching between drivers for the same device. >> >I might be misunderstanding it but, current QT is X so it means 3rd >party can develop with QT 7? Or this affect all QT? IIRC, the old API is supported for 32-bit but not 64-bit -- in practice, this should not be a problem. Otherwise you can develop with QT 7, which will run on QT X. As long as you use the (older) Sequence Grabber API, rather then QTKit, everything should work just fine. Here is another sample which definitely works on 10.6 and uses CoreGraphics: > > At the moment, the only way to reliably support 3rd party drivers >is to use the old API -- hopefully this will change, but the issue >is entirely in Apple's hands. This should also explain why we >haven't been doing many driver updates. >> >I see > >Also I have I new idea but, I don't know it will work, (It might >take some time to test it) and also this might not the right place >to ask about libdc1394. > >If I try libdc1394 do I have chances to get correct color frames >from my camera? I'm pretty sure that libdc1394 has a Bayer decoder, but you will need to write to its API, which doesn't integrate with Mac OS X all that well (but can be made to work). >I did a search and found that there are some private frameworks >that if used, one could get correct behavior (maybe)?(Jun 2007) >http://macdaddyworld.com/2007/07/13/quicktime-72-brings-leopard-functionality/ >Perhaps this is the way HackTV is done? >I wonder if there is a place I can get HackTV code? > >It would be a good idea to write some requests or bug report to >Apple. but what exactly should i write? That QuickTimeX does not >render well color that come from a camera with RGB Bayer color >frames? Since Bayer has been part of the IIDC spec for a long time, you should definitely file bug reports that: 1) The Apple IIDC driver doesn't support Bayer (or get out of the way on a Bayer-only camera) 2) CoreGraphics doesn't support Bayer directly. It would be nice if CoreImage supported Bayer directly as Bayer is 1/4 the size of the equivalent RGB and, since there is a trade-off between speed and quality, it would be good to carry the raw bits around so that a higher quality codec could be used on faster machines or with non-real-time conversion. HTH, -Steve -- _________________________________________________________________________ Steve Sisak, CTO steve.sisak at ioxperts.com IOXperts, Inc. +1 617 876-2572 From steve.sisak at ioxperts.com Mon Feb 15 12:05:40 2010 From: steve.sisak at ioxperts.com (Steve Sisak) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:05:40 -0500 Subject: Snow leopard Support? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:43 AM -0600 2/15/10, Jeff Phillips wrote: >This may be of interest to you: >http://www.outcastsoft.com/ASCASTROIIDC.html That would be roughly equivalent to libdc1394 for a programmer. What Milton (the author) has done is taken the "abandon QuickTime and offer an alternative API" approach -- and done a fine job of it. -Steve -- _________________________________________________________________________ Steve Sisak, CTO steve.sisak at ioxperts.com IOXperts, Inc. +1 617 876-2572 From jfraser82 at me.com Mon Feb 15 12:21:19 2010 From: jfraser82 at me.com (Julian Fraser) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:21:19 -0800 Subject: Snow leopard Support? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <408AFFE8-FF77-44CA-BE65-BD6FB7EDA484@me.com> Hi. I think I was put on this discussion thread inadvertantly. Please take me off your Video-Beta-Discuss mailing list since I don't want to receive a copy of these threads that do not pertain to questions I have asked personally. The email address probably associated with my account on your site is Accounts_JLF at me.com On Feb 15, 2010, at 9:05 AM, Steve Sisak wrote: > At 10:43 AM -0600 2/15/10, Jeff Phillips wrote: >> This may be of interest to you: >> http://www.outcastsoft.com/ASCASTROIIDC.html > > That would be roughly equivalent to libdc1394 for a programmer. > > What Milton (the author) has done is taken the "abandon QuickTime and > offer an alternative API" approach -- and done a fine job of it. > > -Steve > -- > _________________________________________________________________________ > Steve Sisak, CTO steve.sisak at ioxperts.com > IOXperts, Inc. +1 617 876-2572 > _______________________________________________ > Video-Beta-Discuss mailing list > Video-Beta-Discuss at lists.ioxperts.com > http://lists.ioxperts.com/mailman/listinfo/video-beta-discuss